Look Back Rule

[ADMIN]

There has been a fair amount of discussion in emails regarding the Fastpitch Look Back Rule in 10U Fastpitch.

The rule is in effect.

Below is a link to a copy of the rule.

members.aol.com/dbacentral/lookback.zip

The important point to understand, and the apparent source of some misunderstanding, is the application of this rule on the batter/runner going to first on a walk.

N.

[red1]

This rule essentially amounts to stealing second base on a walk. Stealing is not allowed in 10U fastpitch, and this should be the case across the board, including walks. I thought this was an instructional league, instead of a win at any costs league.

[jlambert]

Is NFHS softball rulebook where the DBA draws it's rules from? Are there any other source for the rules?

[ADMIN]

These are the rules:

members.aol.com/dbacentral/rules.html

N.

[red1]

You can order the NFHS rule book from the Michigan High School Athletic Association for $8. They also have a casebook for $8 as well. You can find the order form on their website, www.mhsaa.com/resources/orderform.pdf. They had some in stock as of a few weeks ago, but you may want to call before sending in your order form.

DBA rules that were handed out to coaches at the meeting earlier in the year do not include the lookback rule. Simply looking at the rules that are presented would lead one to believe that 10U fastpitch softball players are limited in advancing.

[dmadigan]

I agree that the lookback rule obviously will either need to be eliminated from 10U as a aplay option next season or will require further explanation of use in the DBA rules...one or the other. However this is not considered a "steal" when it is used, thus the reason for the name "lookback". The advancement by the base runner is simply a continuation option of the inital walk, not a steal of second base, thus the reason it's called the "lookback" rule. The pitcher is highly advised to take a "look back" to check the movemnet of the baserunner. (The ball is not "dead" and 'time" is not assumed just because the pitcher has the ball in the circle either....)

Diane

[ADMIN]

The editorial philosophy underlying the DBA rulebook is to focus principally on exceptions to the general high school rules. Member associations are regularly encouraged to provide their managers copies of the high school rules. Results are hit or miss.

N.

[gifp210u]

I'm replying to the comment that was posted that says when a player walks and then continues immediately to second base, it is not a stolen base but a continuation of the walk.

I believe that this interpretation is incorrect. If you think of how a scorekeeper would have to record this event, a walk would be recorded for the movement to 1st base and the advancement of the player from 1st base to second base would have to be recorded as a steal. This position is supported by the National Fastpitch Coaches Association guidelines for scorekeeping.

Since the 10U FP League has a no steal rule, a player must stop at first base after a walk.

I suggest that the 10U GM research this and enforce the no stealing rule properly.

[dmadigan]

Sorry...i haven't checked into this thread in a while. In response to the comment above, I have researched this rule throroughly in the past for other reasons unrelated to the 10U DBA division. I've spoken to a variety of longtime umps and folks who are well-versed about MHSAA softball rules. I've also researched the rule on various websites. The overwhelming majority agree with my assessment. I'll steal this quote from a website devoted to beaking down girls softball rules for parents and players found at http://www.gilrs-softball.com:

"Note: A base on balls or dropped third strike, on which the runner is entitled to run, is treated the same as a batted ball. The batter-baserunner may continue past first base and is entitled to run towards second base as long as she does not stop at first base ..."

A base on balls is treated the same as a batted ball. This statement is key to understanding this rule.

I hope this helps!

Diane
10U GM

[gifp210u]

Dear 10U FP GM: The rule interpretation that a walk is treated the same as a batted ball would be correct if stealing was allowed. This interpretation is simply stating that for both a walk and a batted ball, the play stays live and runners can advance at their own risk.

Since the 10U league has a "No Stealing" rule, what I would like you to respond to is the following: If this were a game being recorded with full score keeping to account for all action on the field, please explain how a scorekeeper would record the batter/base-runner moving to 2nd base on a walk. Would you record it as a 2 base walk? I don't think that you'll find a 2 base walk in the rule book.

The correct scoring would be a base on balls to record the movement to first and then a steal to record the movement from 1st to second base.

If the movement from 1st base to 2nd base would have to be recorded as a steal, how can you say that it is not a stolen base just because it was a continuation from the walk. Unless you can find a rule for a 2 base walk, I think that you have the wrong interpretation of the rule.

[dmadigan]

The movement from 1st to 2nd base after the base on balls is awarded is commonly referred to as the continuous walk, not a walk and a steal. Similarily, how would you score a play where the runner hits the ball into the infield, makes it down to first and then rounds and goes to second without any throw attempt to put her out and no fielding error? I've seen this happen - the batter hit the ball down the third base line and 3rd baseman was not charging because there was a runner at 3rd and less than 2 outs, score was tied. She eventually fielded the ball and checked the runner at third. In the meantime, the runner who hit the ball rounded first and proceeded to second in the hopes of drawing the throw so the 3rd base runner could score. The fielder did not throw the ball and the batter made it to second. This is not entered into the scorebook as a base hiit and a steal. This situation is often referred to as defensive indiffrence.

[gifp210u]

Actually, the situation that you have described would be scored as a 2 base hit. It doesn't matter whether the ball was hit out of the infield or not, but if the batter makes it to second base on the hit without an error being committed, it would be scored as a 2 base hit.

There is no such thing as a continuous walk. It would be considered a continuation of play after the walk was awarded. Since there is no such thing as a two base walk, the advance from 1st to second would be recorded as a steal.

Since the DBA rules committee set up the no stealing rule, I suggest that they clarify the rule. All I can tell you is that in the past years it was always considered a steal for the runner to continue on to second base after a walk.

[dbaprez18ubbgm]

I agree we need to clarify this and it will be addressed when we talk about rules at the post season meeting. Odd thing about this is we never had this issue arise in years previously. I will admit we could use some SB help at times for all of us on the DBA board are more orientated to BB.